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Bhakta: You must remove a big load from my head, Swami. However much I try to forget it, in whichever direction I turn, I suffer from that; I hear only that! Then how can I dismiss it from my mind? Finding it impossible, I am praying to You. Please do not mistake my intention; kindly give me a direct answer, because if You do so, the weight will be lifted from the heads of all people like me, and enthusiasm will increase for sadhana. Otherwise, I am worried, we may lose even the little faith that we have in the Lord and I am afraid we may turn atheists. Your answer will be of immense help, not only to me, but to all bhaktas everywhere. Therefore, I pray earnestly to You to wipe off my doubts without hesitation and tell me the real truth, in very clear terms.
Swami: What is it? Tell me. What is the cause of so much headache?
Bhakta: Swami, You have told us that man has Four Dharmas: brahmacharya (spiritual studentship), grihastha (householder), vanaprastha (recluse), and the sannyasa (renunciant); and that those who reach the last stage are indeed blessed, for they attain Realisation. Now, please tell us what exactly is that sannyasa?
Swami: So, this has caused you all the worry! Is it? My dear fellow, the wearing of the gerua (ochre or saffron) cloth, the shaving of the head, these do not make a sannyasi. He is a person who has given up all desires. He must be fully immersed in desire, inclination and deed, fully in the One Godhead and in the discipline to attain Him. Whoever is so immersed is a sannyasi. Instead, if they retain all kinds of desires, if they engage themselves in every activity to realise their desires, and merely wear ochre cloth and grow long hair, then they are sannasis, as the saying goes; that is to say, persons who are counterfeits, do you understand?
Bhakta: But, Swami, now we get sannyasis very cheap for a rupee, or for a paisa, or even for a cigarette! Among these, whom should we approach, whom should we accept?
Swami: Why are you concerned with all? You must crave for a person who is concerned with your advancement and points out to you the right path for your sadhana. Or, if that is not possible, you approach and accept your Self; that is safe and enough to give you what you require. Depend upon yourself and your doubts will be destroyed.
Bhakta: In that case, Swami, what about the statement, “Guru-less Vidya is Vision-less Vidya”? It is essential to rely on some great person, is it not? To show the way, I mean.
Swami: Great men have not vanished from the face of the earth, my child! Do not think that all are of the type you mention. There are many great men even now; otherwise, how could the world have daylight, as the saying goes?
Bhakta: Great men may exist among grihasthas, vanaprasthas or brahmacharis, Swami! I haven’t got much experience with such; but still, I have seen among them people with big name and fame. However, I can say this: it is very difficult to discover really holy men among sannyasis. It is impossible to find a single sannyasi without some desire or other. When sannyasis have so much desire, what is wrong if householders have them? To whichever place we go, the one demand is, “Money, Money, Money!”
Swami: Really speaking, sannyasis should have no desire, as you said. Kamini (lustful woman) and kanchana (greed for wealth) are their dreadful enemies. They should have no contact with them. They can accept only whatever little food is given, whenever it is offered, that is all. They can have no desire for more. That is the vow, the rule of a sannyasin. They have nothing to do with money.
Bhakta: Well, Swami, excuse me. Sannyasis are perpetually in need of money! No householder worries so much as they, for money! They wander about from place to place in search of cash, desperately seeking money from all and sundry. They exploit and extract from the disciples their hard-earned wealth. Those who do not give are condemned. Is all this right, Swami? Is this just? Are these people, Gurus?
Swami: No wise person will say that these things are just. How can I say it is right? Why, can you not ask such sannyasis once, “Sirs, why do you need cash? Is it not wrong for you to have this craving for money?”
Bhakta: Oh, I have asked them, Swami.
Swami: What did they say?
Bhakta: Some said, they wanted money for the expenses of their ashram; others said, they wanted to develop their ashram further. Many such reasons were given. For those who have learnt to argue, reason-giving is not very hard. They are experts in extracting bundles of currency.
Swami: The Guru must engage himself in the progress of the disciples who come to him for guidance, and not the ashram; the ashrita (disciple) is more important than the ashram. The excitement, the anxiety about the ashram becomes itself a huge shramam or burden. It is on account of this that people lose even the little faith and devotion that they have and are transformed into atheists. Such Gurus, instead of giving up all ties, have yoked themselves tighter; they are beasts of burden, rather. My dear fellow, do not even cast your looks upon the Guru who inflicts pain and pressure on a disciple to extract money. Keep as far away as possible from such persons. Do not lose Faith by contact with them. Preserve it and develop it, by yourself.
Bhakta: We go to such people eager to learn the higher things of life, and to know the path for the attainment of the Lord. We seek and search for such people, for we do not know which snake lives in which hole, as the saying goes; but we find these cobra sannyasis and are shocked! The anxious desire that they exhibit for the ashram... is not that also wrong, Swami? If they want to serve the public like that, they can as well be just ordinary people and retain their original names and go about collecting funds and spending them, isn’t it? Calling themselves sannyasis, and wearing that dress, getting upadesham (spiritual instruction), taking upon themselves numerous vows at the time of initiation into monkhood, declaring that they have destroyed all desire,…if later they follow the path of accumulation, is it not spoiling the very sacredness of monkhood?
Swami: That individual may be spoiled, that is all, my dear; the sacredness of sannyasa can never be diminished! Do not run away with that idea. Of course, there are such men in the world today. But please do not include them in the list of sannyasis or swamis. They have no relationship with these two categories. They only do harm to their disciples by retaining those designations. Do not even spend a single thought on them.
Bhakta: All right, Swami. But there are some who have built ashrams and who are established as Gurus: for them too, this desire for money, etc. is wrong, is it not?
Swami: Why do you ask so? Have these people got any special adornment like horns on the head? Really speaking, these people have to be even more careful. For they train many disciples and so, they must make a special effort to see that, with their good teachings, the trainees acquire the right attitudes, and get them fully immersed in the contemplation of the Lord. Otherwise, much injury will be caused to the world. If the Guru pays attention to the spiritual progress and inward joy of the disciples, the disciples themselves will strive for the development of the ashram. No need for the Guru to exert any pressure. Instead, forgetting their progress, if he clamours for so much of money from this disciple and so much from this devotee for the development of “his” ashram, then the disciple will lose devotion and the Guru will lose “his” ashram itself! This is the result of all this!
Bhakta: Besides all this, Swami, if anyone notices such wrong things and points out to them that it is wrong, they get wild and threaten severe punishments. Is that right, Swami?
Swami: This is an additional wrong. How can it be right? It is not correct for any Guru to weaken the heart of any disciple; he must please it and satisfy it. People who frighten and extract are not teachers, but cheaters. They are not shepherds, but sheep.
Bhakta: Then, what do you advise us to do? How are we to deal with these people? Please tell us, Swami.
Swami: My dear child, give up all talk of people who have lost their way. Speak of your reaching the path. Give up all contact with such persons and cultivate contacts with places where there is neither lust nor greed nor any other desire. Seek for the Guru who looks on all with equal prema. The real Guru must have certain qualities. Note this. If those qualities are present, go there and be happy. If you do not get such a place, meditate on God within yourself. Do dhyanam (meditation), smaranam (remembering the name of the Lord), and bhajana (singing the glory of the Lord). That is enough, you need not search for another place at all. Whenever you have leisure, read good devotional books. Even from these books, take what you need and discard the rest. Be careful; do not get entangled in all kinds of nets and traps.
Bhakta: What are the qualities of those Great Men, Swami?
Swami: They will not have the craving for wealth; nor the ambition to develop their ashrams; they will neither love those who praise them nor hate those who blame them; they will not prevent their disciples from approaching others; they will not prohibit anyone from approaching them; they will look upon all with equal Love; they will not relish the defamation of others; they will not be vengeful against those who point out to them their own mistakes and wrongs; they will always spread satya, dharma, shanti, and prema; they will ever yearn for the joy, welfare, and progress of the devotees. Seek such persons. They are the true Gurus. Do not even cast a glance at those who are afflicted with anger, anxiety, hatred, envy, etc., or those worrying about their desires, name and fame and honour and status, however pompous their personality, however resounding their reputation may be.
Bhakta: All right, Swami. It is all very good. But, just one little doubt. These big Gurus, highly learned, giving long lectures for hours together, how is it that they do not realise all this - the obligatory good qualities and good habits? Cannot these big men see their faults for themselves and set them right?
Swami: Well, even an ounce of experience is useful! But a ton of learning may prove useless without experience. Many people lecture in Colleges, and pour forth hour after hour, the things they have learnt by rote. Can one become great by merely the length or grandeur of his lectures? There is nothing great in that. That is like vomiting the swallowed meal. You must see how much of what is spoken is practised. Those who give advice must follow it themselves. If you cannot avoid doing a thing, do not ask others to avoid it. This is the right way. So, however learned a person may be, unless he has experience and practice, it will be simply a nine-days’ wonder, and after that, he will be neither here nor there. Of course, the qualities I mentioned are to be noted, not merely in the Gurus, but in all. So, give up all this talk about others being bad or wrong and distance yourself from such people; develop your faith and devotion; strengthen your discipline for meditation on the Lord; engage yourself in beneficial deeds; speak only what is true and what will bring good; worship the Lord; keep Him ever in the memory; do japam and dhyanam. If you are immersed in these, you will not worry at all about the right and wrong of others.
Bhakta: You must remove a big load from my head, Swami. However much I try to forget it, in whichever direction I turn, I suffer from that; I hear only that! Then how can I dismiss it from my mind? Finding it impossible, I am praying to You. Please do not mistake my intention; kindly give me a direct answer, because if You do so, the weight will be lifted from the heads of all people like me, and enthusiasm will increase for sadhana. Otherwise, I am worried, we may lose even the little faith that we have in the Lord and I am afraid we may turn atheists. Your answer will be of immense help, not only to me, but to all bhaktas everywhere. Therefore, I pray earnestly to You to wipe off my doubts without hesitation and tell me the real truth, in very clear terms.
Swami: What is it? Tell me. What is the cause of so much headache?
Bhakta: Swami, You have told us that man has Four Dharmas: brahmacharya (spiritual studentship), grihastha (householder), vanaprastha (recluse), and the sannyasa (renunciant); and that those who reach the last stage are indeed blessed, for they attain Realisation. Now, please tell us what exactly is that sannyasa?
Swami: So, this has caused you all the worry! Is it? My dear fellow, the wearing of the gerua (ochre or saffron) cloth, the shaving of the head, these do not make a sannyasi. He is a person who has given up all desires. He must be fully immersed in desire, inclination and deed, fully in the One Godhead and in the discipline to attain Him. Whoever is so immersed is a sannyasi. Instead, if they retain all kinds of desires, if they engage themselves in every activity to realise their desires, and merely wear ochre cloth and grow long hair, then they are sannasis, as the saying goes; that is to say, persons who are counterfeits, do you understand?
Bhakta: But, Swami, now we get sannyasis very cheap for a rupee, or for a paisa, or even for a cigarette! Among these, whom should we approach, whom should we accept?
Swami: Why are you concerned with all? You must crave for a person who is concerned with your advancement and points out to you the right path for your sadhana. Or, if that is not possible, you approach and accept your Self; that is safe and enough to give you what you require. Depend upon yourself and your doubts will be destroyed.
Bhakta: In that case, Swami, what about the statement, “Guru-less Vidya is Vision-less Vidya”? It is essential to rely on some great person, is it not? To show the way, I mean.
Swami: Great men have not vanished from the face of the earth, my child! Do not think that all are of the type you mention. There are many great men even now; otherwise, how could the world have daylight, as the saying goes?
Bhakta: Great men may exist among grihasthas, vanaprasthas or brahmacharis, Swami! I haven’t got much experience with such; but still, I have seen among them people with big name and fame. However, I can say this: it is very difficult to discover really holy men among sannyasis. It is impossible to find a single sannyasi without some desire or other. When sannyasis have so much desire, what is wrong if householders have them? To whichever place we go, the one demand is, “Money, Money, Money!”
Swami: Really speaking, sannyasis should have no desire, as you said. Kamini (lustful woman) and kanchana (greed for wealth) are their dreadful enemies. They should have no contact with them. They can accept only whatever little food is given, whenever it is offered, that is all. They can have no desire for more. That is the vow, the rule of a sannyasin. They have nothing to do with money.
Bhakta: Well, Swami, excuse me. Sannyasis are perpetually in need of money! No householder worries so much as they, for money! They wander about from place to place in search of cash, desperately seeking money from all and sundry. They exploit and extract from the disciples their hard-earned wealth. Those who do not give are condemned. Is all this right, Swami? Is this just? Are these people, Gurus?
Swami: No wise person will say that these things are just. How can I say it is right? Why, can you not ask such sannyasis once, “Sirs, why do you need cash? Is it not wrong for you to have this craving for money?”
Bhakta: Oh, I have asked them, Swami.
Swami: What did they say?
Bhakta: Some said, they wanted money for the expenses of their ashram; others said, they wanted to develop their ashram further. Many such reasons were given. For those who have learnt to argue, reason-giving is not very hard. They are experts in extracting bundles of currency.
Swami: The Guru must engage himself in the progress of the disciples who come to him for guidance, and not the ashram; the ashrita (disciple) is more important than the ashram. The excitement, the anxiety about the ashram becomes itself a huge shramam or burden. It is on account of this that people lose even the little faith and devotion that they have and are transformed into atheists. Such Gurus, instead of giving up all ties, have yoked themselves tighter; they are beasts of burden, rather. My dear fellow, do not even cast your looks upon the Guru who inflicts pain and pressure on a disciple to extract money. Keep as far away as possible from such persons. Do not lose Faith by contact with them. Preserve it and develop it, by yourself.
Bhakta: We go to such people eager to learn the higher things of life, and to know the path for the attainment of the Lord. We seek and search for such people, for we do not know which snake lives in which hole, as the saying goes; but we find these cobra sannyasis and are shocked! The anxious desire that they exhibit for the ashram... is not that also wrong, Swami? If they want to serve the public like that, they can as well be just ordinary people and retain their original names and go about collecting funds and spending them, isn’t it? Calling themselves sannyasis, and wearing that dress, getting upadesham (spiritual instruction), taking upon themselves numerous vows at the time of initiation into monkhood, declaring that they have destroyed all desire,…if later they follow the path of accumulation, is it not spoiling the very sacredness of monkhood?
Swami: That individual may be spoiled, that is all, my dear; the sacredness of sannyasa can never be diminished! Do not run away with that idea. Of course, there are such men in the world today. But please do not include them in the list of sannyasis or swamis. They have no relationship with these two categories. They only do harm to their disciples by retaining those designations. Do not even spend a single thought on them.
Bhakta: All right, Swami. But there are some who have built ashrams and who are established as Gurus: for them too, this desire for money, etc. is wrong, is it not?
Swami: Why do you ask so? Have these people got any special adornment like horns on the head? Really speaking, these people have to be even more careful. For they train many disciples and so, they must make a special effort to see that, with their good teachings, the trainees acquire the right attitudes, and get them fully immersed in the contemplation of the Lord. Otherwise, much injury will be caused to the world. If the Guru pays attention to the spiritual progress and inward joy of the disciples, the disciples themselves will strive for the development of the ashram. No need for the Guru to exert any pressure. Instead, forgetting their progress, if he clamours for so much of money from this disciple and so much from this devotee for the development of “his” ashram, then the disciple will lose devotion and the Guru will lose “his” ashram itself! This is the result of all this!
Bhakta: Besides all this, Swami, if anyone notices such wrong things and points out to them that it is wrong, they get wild and threaten severe punishments. Is that right, Swami?
Swami: This is an additional wrong. How can it be right? It is not correct for any Guru to weaken the heart of any disciple; he must please it and satisfy it. People who frighten and extract are not teachers, but cheaters. They are not shepherds, but sheep.
Bhakta: Then, what do you advise us to do? How are we to deal with these people? Please tell us, Swami.
Swami: My dear child, give up all talk of people who have lost their way. Speak of your reaching the path. Give up all contact with such persons and cultivate contacts with places where there is neither lust nor greed nor any other desire. Seek for the Guru who looks on all with equal prema. The real Guru must have certain qualities. Note this. If those qualities are present, go there and be happy. If you do not get such a place, meditate on God within yourself. Do dhyanam (meditation), smaranam (remembering the name of the Lord), and bhajana (singing the glory of the Lord). That is enough, you need not search for another place at all. Whenever you have leisure, read good devotional books. Even from these books, take what you need and discard the rest. Be careful; do not get entangled in all kinds of nets and traps.
Bhakta: What are the qualities of those Great Men, Swami?
Swami: They will not have the craving for wealth; nor the ambition to develop their ashrams; they will neither love those who praise them nor hate those who blame them; they will not prevent their disciples from approaching others; they will not prohibit anyone from approaching them; they will look upon all with equal Love; they will not relish the defamation of others; they will not be vengeful against those who point out to them their own mistakes and wrongs; they will always spread satya, dharma, shanti, and prema; they will ever yearn for the joy, welfare, and progress of the devotees. Seek such persons. They are the true Gurus. Do not even cast a glance at those who are afflicted with anger, anxiety, hatred, envy, etc., or those worrying about their desires, name and fame and honour and status, however pompous their personality, however resounding their reputation may be.
Bhakta: All right, Swami. It is all very good. But, just one little doubt. These big Gurus, highly learned, giving long lectures for hours together, how is it that they do not realise all this - the obligatory good qualities and good habits? Cannot these big men see their faults for themselves and set them right?
Swami: Well, even an ounce of experience is useful! But a ton of learning may prove useless without experience. Many people lecture in Colleges, and pour forth hour after hour, the things they have learnt by rote. Can one become great by merely the length or grandeur of his lectures? There is nothing great in that. That is like vomiting the swallowed meal. You must see how much of what is spoken is practised. Those who give advice must follow it themselves. If you cannot avoid doing a thing, do not ask others to avoid it. This is the right way. So, however learned a person may be, unless he has experience and practice, it will be simply a nine-days’ wonder, and after that, he will be neither here nor there. Of course, the qualities I mentioned are to be noted, not merely in the Gurus, but in all. So, give up all this talk about others being bad or wrong and distance yourself from such people; develop your faith and devotion; strengthen your discipline for meditation on the Lord; engage yourself in beneficial deeds; speak only what is true and what will bring good; worship the Lord; keep Him ever in the memory; do japam and dhyanam. If you are immersed in these, you will not worry at all about the right and wrong of others.