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Bhakta: Swami, last time you spoke of the Mahabharata war; in the same manner, does the Ramayana also happen in everyone’s heart?
Swami: Undoubtedly! It does take place.
Bhakta: Then, in what form does Rama come in this?
Swami: The Atma is Rama. He has come, in the character of Jeevi, wearing the dress called body.
Bhakta: Then, being a Sankalpasiddha, whose Will prevails, and being Sarvashaktimaya, who is all powerful, why does He suffer so much?
Swami: It is all play; His Leela, Divine Sport. What is Joy for Him? And what is Suffering for Him? He is Anandasvarupa (Embodiment of Bliss), who knows neither. By His Maya Sankalpam (Will to create Maya, illusion) He can produce everything and destroy everything. He has enacted the Ramayana called ‘Life’ on the stage of the theatre of the World, with Himself taking a role and showing each quality or Guna as a separate Form. Such a Ramayana is taking place, in every heart, even today. The Rama in the Heart, the Atmarama, is observing everything, as Witness.
Bhakta: But the inert material Jada, the Jeevi, how does it enter into this Ramayana?
Swami: This Jada accepts the Chaitanya (Pure Consciousness), viz. the Brahmajnanam, the Knowledge of Brahmam (Self-Knowledge). That Brahmajñana Chaitanya is born with the name of Sita. Then the Jada and Chaitanya become One. This is referred to as Sitarama. So long as the Jada and the Chaitanya are One, there is no trouble and no suffering. It is the separation of one of these two that gives rise to all the bother.
Bhakta: How is that, Swami?
Swami: Sita, who is Brahmajnanam, goes away from the Atma which is in the form of the Jeeva; hence, falling into the Darkness or Jungle of Life is inevitable. Rama has acted in this way to show us this; if Sita or Brahmajnanam is allowed to be lost, Jeeva cannot escape wandering about in the Jungle of Darkness.
Bhakta: If that is so, what is the reason, Swami, for this Lakshmana to be always with Him? In our life, what does he stand for?
Swami: One should not be alone in the dark jungle of life. One should have the Manas called Lakshmana ever by one’s side. It is for this that Lakshmana is kept near, always.
Bhakta: In the Ramayana, Vali and Sugriva are described. Who are they?
Swami: Whilst wandering in the dark jungle of life one gets despair when one should get discrimination. But despair and discrimination have vengeful hatred towards each other. Vali, who is despair, has to be destroyed; then only can success come. Despair is Vali; Discrimination is Sugriva.
Bhakta: Hanuman, who appears between these two, who is he?
Swami: He who is of great help in the destruction of despair, viz. Courage! That is Hanuman. He is in the form of courage. Because of the association one has developed with courage, it is possible to cross the Ocean of Moha (Illusion) with ease. That is why Rama built the Setu or bridge with the help of Hanuman.
Bhakta: After crossing the Ocean of Illusion, what is intended to be done?
Swami: Don’t you know what Rama did after crossing over the Bridge? Soon after conquering Moha or Illusion, He slew Rajo-guna (passionate and aggressive quality) and Tamo-guna (quality of dullness and ignorance) in the form of Ravana and Kumbhakarna. The remaining brother, the last, the Satva-guna (quality of purity and goodness), viz., Vibhishana was crowned King. The three Gunas have been illustrated in the characters and careers of the three brothers, Ravana, Kumbhakarna and Vibhishana.
Bhakta: After this, what is it that is said to be achieved?
Swami: Said to be achieved, do you say? Next, is the attainment of Sita, i.e., the personification of Anubhavajnanam (Experiential knowledge), known as Chaitanya! When both Jada and Chaitanya unite again, that is the Pattabhishekam, the Coronation; that is to say, Jeevanmukti, Salvation for the Jeeva. Therefore, the fundamental teaching of the Ramayana is this: “The Jeeva, Manas, Jnanam, Despair, Discrimination, Courage, Delusion, Rajas, Tamas, Satva; these demonstrate themselves each in a different Form. It is to be learnt how and in what ways each of these can be either acquired or subdued. All this is done by the Atma, who has come in the form and with the name of Rama, by His acting, directing, leading and guiding.” So, the Ramayana has not ended long ago. So long as in each one’s life there is a struggle for achievement through these paths, and each one attains the Anubhavajnanam in the end and Satvaguna is crowned at last, until then the Ramayana will continue to take place in the field of heart of each one. On one side the Mahabharata war, on the other side the Ramayana, and on another the Bhagavata; thus, is life led perpetually. These are the Sukshma (Subtle) forms of the Ramayana, the Mahabharata and the Bhagavata. Do you understand?
Bhakta: That means, in the Ramayana of actual life, Atma is Rama, Manas is Lakshmana, Brahmajnanam is Sita, and when that Sita is lost, Rama falls into the forest of existence, life; there, in that forest, there are despair and discrimination, i.e., Vali and Sugriva. If we associate ourselves with Hanuman or courage, we can destroy despair and go across the sea of delusion, with the army of zest, strength, steadfastness and majesty represented by Jambavan, Angada and other Vanaras. As soon as we cross it, we can destroy the Rajas quality and the Tamas quality symbolised by Ravana and Kumbhakarna. The Satva quality or Vibhishana can then be crowned; Anubhavajnanam or Sita is then attained. This union of Jada and Chaitanya, that is, of Sita and Rama is the Atmananda, the Jeevanmukti, Salvation for the Soul. Ah! What a splendid Ramayana! The Ramayana accomplished as the Son of Dasharatha is being enacted now as the Subtle Ramayana, through the forms of Gunas and Indriyas, Qualities and Senses, in each individual, so to say.
Swami: There is no “so to say” in this. It is happening as the subtle Ramayana!
Bhakta: You said, Swami, that each Guna, and each Indriya adopts in the Ramayana a separate form. It causes some surprise to imagine that the senses also put on some form! In these, the gross and the subtle Ramayanas, in what forms do the senses appear? Please tell me this.
Swami: Whatever Guna or quality it may be, how can it express itself, without the help of the senses? Gunas are born in the senses. Karmendriyas, the senses of action, are five; Jnanendriyas, the senses of knowledge, are five. These ten, reach Atma through Manas. Otherwise, there can be no merging at all. “Born in Maya, bred in Maya, Man’s mission is to master Maya,” it is said. So too, born in the senses, bred in the senses, the Jada-Chaitanya has to master the senses. That is their Lakshanam (basic characteristic), isn’t it? That is why, do you know where Rama, the Jeevi, was born? Whose son is He? Dasharatha has that name because he symbolises the Dasendriyas, or the Ten Senses. Whichever Guna or Rupa we consider, it cannot be unrelated to the Ten Senses. But they are in the form of the Senses of Action and of Knowledge, the Karmendriyas and the Jnanendriyas, now; back then, they were all in the form of Dasharatha.
Bhakta: Four sons were born of Dasharatha. Of what were they, the forms, Swami?
Swami: From the Ten Senses, not only four, but any number of Gunas and Rupas can originate. But only the chiefest, the four, symbolising the four faces of the Lord, originated by His Will since the Paramatma is Chaturmukha, the one with four faces. They are born as Rama, Lakshmana, Bharata and Shatrughna. They are Satya, Dharma, Shanti and Prema in the subtle form. These are the Four Faces of the Lord.
Bhakta: Who among these, Swami, is Satya? Who represents Dharma, Shanti and Prema?
Swami: Can’t you discover so much? Rama is Satya Svarupa, the embodiment of Truth. “The status and the honour should go to him who has the right, not to me,” said Bharata (when he was offered the crown) and so, he is Dharma Svarupa, the embodiment of Righteousness. Placing complete faith on the Atma, that is, Rama, believing that there is no Ananda sweeter than its uninterrupted company, Lakshmana followed Rama inseparably and so, he is Prema Svarupa, the embodiment of Love. Having no individual separate ambition of his own, treading the paths followed by these three, Shatrughna was calm and unperturbed and so, he is Shanta Svarupa, the embodiment of Peace. Is that clear?
Bhakta: Yes, Swami. But these four were born of three mothers; who are those mothers?
Swami: As I said just now, “Born in Maya, bred in Maya, one has to transcend this Maya”; so also, these four are born from Gunas, brought up with Gunas; finally, transcended the Gunas. Just to show this fact, the three mothers represent three Gunas! Among them, Kousalya is Satvaguna, Kaikeyi is Rajoguna, and Sumitra, Tamoguna; they play those roles, in the epic. Dasharatha in the form of Dasendriyas, is associated with these Gunas and so he stands by the name Indriya Gunasvarupa. It is because man cannot easily grasp the truth through the senses and the Gunas, that the Lord taught him through the Ramayana by means of a variety of forms; the Lord is teaching us even to this day. The Lord performed that day the gross Ramayana; and today He is performing the Sukshma Ramayana through Gunas and Rupas on the stage of the heart of Man.
Bhakta: Swami, last time you spoke of the Mahabharata war; in the same manner, does the Ramayana also happen in everyone’s heart?
Swami: Undoubtedly! It does take place.
Bhakta: Then, in what form does Rama come in this?
Swami: The Atma is Rama. He has come, in the character of Jeevi, wearing the dress called body.
Bhakta: Then, being a Sankalpasiddha, whose Will prevails, and being Sarvashaktimaya, who is all powerful, why does He suffer so much?
Swami: It is all play; His Leela, Divine Sport. What is Joy for Him? And what is Suffering for Him? He is Anandasvarupa (Embodiment of Bliss), who knows neither. By His Maya Sankalpam (Will to create Maya, illusion) He can produce everything and destroy everything. He has enacted the Ramayana called ‘Life’ on the stage of the theatre of the World, with Himself taking a role and showing each quality or Guna as a separate Form. Such a Ramayana is taking place, in every heart, even today. The Rama in the Heart, the Atmarama, is observing everything, as Witness.
Bhakta: But the inert material Jada, the Jeevi, how does it enter into this Ramayana?
Swami: This Jada accepts the Chaitanya (Pure Consciousness), viz. the Brahmajnanam, the Knowledge of Brahmam (Self-Knowledge). That Brahmajñana Chaitanya is born with the name of Sita. Then the Jada and Chaitanya become One. This is referred to as Sitarama. So long as the Jada and the Chaitanya are One, there is no trouble and no suffering. It is the separation of one of these two that gives rise to all the bother.
Bhakta: How is that, Swami?
Swami: Sita, who is Brahmajnanam, goes away from the Atma which is in the form of the Jeeva; hence, falling into the Darkness or Jungle of Life is inevitable. Rama has acted in this way to show us this; if Sita or Brahmajnanam is allowed to be lost, Jeeva cannot escape wandering about in the Jungle of Darkness.
Bhakta: If that is so, what is the reason, Swami, for this Lakshmana to be always with Him? In our life, what does he stand for?
Swami: One should not be alone in the dark jungle of life. One should have the Manas called Lakshmana ever by one’s side. It is for this that Lakshmana is kept near, always.
Bhakta: In the Ramayana, Vali and Sugriva are described. Who are they?
Swami: Whilst wandering in the dark jungle of life one gets despair when one should get discrimination. But despair and discrimination have vengeful hatred towards each other. Vali, who is despair, has to be destroyed; then only can success come. Despair is Vali; Discrimination is Sugriva.
Bhakta: Hanuman, who appears between these two, who is he?
Swami: He who is of great help in the destruction of despair, viz. Courage! That is Hanuman. He is in the form of courage. Because of the association one has developed with courage, it is possible to cross the Ocean of Moha (Illusion) with ease. That is why Rama built the Setu or bridge with the help of Hanuman.
Bhakta: After crossing the Ocean of Illusion, what is intended to be done?
Swami: Don’t you know what Rama did after crossing over the Bridge? Soon after conquering Moha or Illusion, He slew Rajo-guna (passionate and aggressive quality) and Tamo-guna (quality of dullness and ignorance) in the form of Ravana and Kumbhakarna. The remaining brother, the last, the Satva-guna (quality of purity and goodness), viz., Vibhishana was crowned King. The three Gunas have been illustrated in the characters and careers of the three brothers, Ravana, Kumbhakarna and Vibhishana.
Bhakta: After this, what is it that is said to be achieved?
Swami: Said to be achieved, do you say? Next, is the attainment of Sita, i.e., the personification of Anubhavajnanam (Experiential knowledge), known as Chaitanya! When both Jada and Chaitanya unite again, that is the Pattabhishekam, the Coronation; that is to say, Jeevanmukti, Salvation for the Jeeva. Therefore, the fundamental teaching of the Ramayana is this: “The Jeeva, Manas, Jnanam, Despair, Discrimination, Courage, Delusion, Rajas, Tamas, Satva; these demonstrate themselves each in a different Form. It is to be learnt how and in what ways each of these can be either acquired or subdued. All this is done by the Atma, who has come in the form and with the name of Rama, by His acting, directing, leading and guiding.” So, the Ramayana has not ended long ago. So long as in each one’s life there is a struggle for achievement through these paths, and each one attains the Anubhavajnanam in the end and Satvaguna is crowned at last, until then the Ramayana will continue to take place in the field of heart of each one. On one side the Mahabharata war, on the other side the Ramayana, and on another the Bhagavata; thus, is life led perpetually. These are the Sukshma (Subtle) forms of the Ramayana, the Mahabharata and the Bhagavata. Do you understand?
Bhakta: That means, in the Ramayana of actual life, Atma is Rama, Manas is Lakshmana, Brahmajnanam is Sita, and when that Sita is lost, Rama falls into the forest of existence, life; there, in that forest, there are despair and discrimination, i.e., Vali and Sugriva. If we associate ourselves with Hanuman or courage, we can destroy despair and go across the sea of delusion, with the army of zest, strength, steadfastness and majesty represented by Jambavan, Angada and other Vanaras. As soon as we cross it, we can destroy the Rajas quality and the Tamas quality symbolised by Ravana and Kumbhakarna. The Satva quality or Vibhishana can then be crowned; Anubhavajnanam or Sita is then attained. This union of Jada and Chaitanya, that is, of Sita and Rama is the Atmananda, the Jeevanmukti, Salvation for the Soul. Ah! What a splendid Ramayana! The Ramayana accomplished as the Son of Dasharatha is being enacted now as the Subtle Ramayana, through the forms of Gunas and Indriyas, Qualities and Senses, in each individual, so to say.
Swami: There is no “so to say” in this. It is happening as the subtle Ramayana!
Bhakta: You said, Swami, that each Guna, and each Indriya adopts in the Ramayana a separate form. It causes some surprise to imagine that the senses also put on some form! In these, the gross and the subtle Ramayanas, in what forms do the senses appear? Please tell me this.
Swami: Whatever Guna or quality it may be, how can it express itself, without the help of the senses? Gunas are born in the senses. Karmendriyas, the senses of action, are five; Jnanendriyas, the senses of knowledge, are five. These ten, reach Atma through Manas. Otherwise, there can be no merging at all. “Born in Maya, bred in Maya, Man’s mission is to master Maya,” it is said. So too, born in the senses, bred in the senses, the Jada-Chaitanya has to master the senses. That is their Lakshanam (basic characteristic), isn’t it? That is why, do you know where Rama, the Jeevi, was born? Whose son is He? Dasharatha has that name because he symbolises the Dasendriyas, or the Ten Senses. Whichever Guna or Rupa we consider, it cannot be unrelated to the Ten Senses. But they are in the form of the Senses of Action and of Knowledge, the Karmendriyas and the Jnanendriyas, now; back then, they were all in the form of Dasharatha.
Bhakta: Four sons were born of Dasharatha. Of what were they, the forms, Swami?
Swami: From the Ten Senses, not only four, but any number of Gunas and Rupas can originate. But only the chiefest, the four, symbolising the four faces of the Lord, originated by His Will since the Paramatma is Chaturmukha, the one with four faces. They are born as Rama, Lakshmana, Bharata and Shatrughna. They are Satya, Dharma, Shanti and Prema in the subtle form. These are the Four Faces of the Lord.
Bhakta: Who among these, Swami, is Satya? Who represents Dharma, Shanti and Prema?
Swami: Can’t you discover so much? Rama is Satya Svarupa, the embodiment of Truth. “The status and the honour should go to him who has the right, not to me,” said Bharata (when he was offered the crown) and so, he is Dharma Svarupa, the embodiment of Righteousness. Placing complete faith on the Atma, that is, Rama, believing that there is no Ananda sweeter than its uninterrupted company, Lakshmana followed Rama inseparably and so, he is Prema Svarupa, the embodiment of Love. Having no individual separate ambition of his own, treading the paths followed by these three, Shatrughna was calm and unperturbed and so, he is Shanta Svarupa, the embodiment of Peace. Is that clear?
Bhakta: Yes, Swami. But these four were born of three mothers; who are those mothers?
Swami: As I said just now, “Born in Maya, bred in Maya, one has to transcend this Maya”; so also, these four are born from Gunas, brought up with Gunas; finally, transcended the Gunas. Just to show this fact, the three mothers represent three Gunas! Among them, Kousalya is Satvaguna, Kaikeyi is Rajoguna, and Sumitra, Tamoguna; they play those roles, in the epic. Dasharatha in the form of Dasendriyas, is associated with these Gunas and so he stands by the name Indriya Gunasvarupa. It is because man cannot easily grasp the truth through the senses and the Gunas, that the Lord taught him through the Ramayana by means of a variety of forms; the Lord is teaching us even to this day. The Lord performed that day the gross Ramayana; and today He is performing the Sukshma Ramayana through Gunas and Rupas on the stage of the heart of Man.