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Bhakta: Swami, at Venkatagiri, during the Adhyatmika Sabha, You said some things which I could not clearly understand. Can I ask about them now?
Swami: I am happy when anyone asks Me about things which he has not understood. Of course, you have every right to ask.
Bhakta: You said, Sthula-Rupa and Sukshma-Rupa, the gross form and the subtle form, isn’t it? These two, are they the characteristics of the Manas only? Or are they related to everything?
Swami: They are characteristics of everything. In fact, all the names and forms found in the gross exist also in the subtle stage with names and forms! In fact, the gross is there, only to make you understand the subtle present within!
Bhakta: Well then, Swami, we see the gross firmament, the Sthula-Akasha; does it have a subtle Akasha also?
Swami: My dear boy, it is that subtle Akasha which exists in all. The subtle Akasha is as imperceptible and as all-pervading as the gross Akasha.
Bhakta: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: It is known as the Sukshma Hridayakasha, the subtle firmament of the heart.
Bhakta: How can that be all-pervading, Swami?
Swami: Nothing else possesses the vastness that this Hridayakasha has. See how many scenes, how many feelings, how many thoughts, how many conjectures, are immersed and imbedded in it!
Bhakta: Then, have we a subtle Sun also in that subtle sky?
Swami: Of course! Who said, no? Without that, how can there be all this splendour, all this light and wisdom and brightness?
Bhakta: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: When the heart is the Akasha, the Sun, naturally, is the Buddhi or the Intellect that illuminates that sky. The effulgence of the Buddhi is as bright as the rays of the Sun. So, the subtle Sun is Buddhi.
Bhakta: Then it is possible that the Moon also in subtle form is in the Akasha of the heart.
Swami: Not only the Moon, the Sun and the Firmament; did I not tell you in the beginning itself that every gross name and form also has its corresponding subtle name and form? The Moon in its subtle form is Prema (Love), with its cool rays shining in the heart. Love is the subtle form of the Moon.
Bhakta: Excuse me, Swami, the Pandavas and the Kauravas waged a war, isn’t it? How are they supposed to have waged the “subtle” war, these “subtle” Pandavas and their opposite number, the “subtle” Kauravas?
Swami: Why do you say, “supposed to have waged?” They are waging it even today in the subtle form! In this war, Durgunas (Evil qualities) are the Kauravas; the five Sadgunas (Good qualities), Satya (Truth), Dharma (Righteousness), Shanti (Inner Peace), Prema (Love) and Ahimsa (Non-violence) are the five Pandava brothers. The evil qualities are countless, and so the Kauravas too are a horde. Each one under his own Hridayakasha, on his own Chitta Bhumi (field of mind) is waging this war, every moment.
Bhakta: Swami, it is said that the Pandavas are the children of the King, Pandu and the Kauravas are the offspring of the King, Dhritarashtra. In the “subtle” form, how are we to recognise them?
Swami: Both are disputants for the kingship of the selfsame Heart. They are in everyone as Ajnani and Sujnani, the Unwise Personality and the Wise Personality. The unwise blind ruler is Dhritarashtra; the wise Pandu is the father of all good qualities. Have you understood?
Bhakta: But then, Swami, excuse me, in that war there were millions of soldiers and chariots, and the subjects; who are they in this “subtle” conflict?
Swami: Of course, they are all there, in man. The million feelings and thoughts and impressions are the subjects. The ten Indriyas are the regiments; the five senses are the chariots. In everyone’s heart, there is this perpetual war being fought between Good and Evil, between the Pandavas and the Kauravas. Is that clear?
Bhakta: Well, who is Lord Krishna in the subtle war; He who was then the Madhyavarti (the Mediator) between the two, Kauravas and Pandavas?
Swami: Don’t you know? He is the Witness, known as Atma. He is Sarathi, the Charioteer, of the Chariot of life.
Bhakta: Another question. All these people had Hastinapura as their capital then; isn’t it? In the subtle form, which is the Hastinapura?
Swami: The basis for all these subtle manifestations, these subjects, chariots, Pandavas and Kauravas is, as you know, this Asthipanjaram, the Cage of Bones, this Body. So, this Asthipanjaram (Human Skeleton) is Hastinapura! Both have Nine Gates. There, both the Kauravas and the Pandavas were born. They played and were trained there. They grew up together there. They even fought there only. So also, in this same Asthipanjaram all the qualities, good and bad, are born and do grow. They develop and subside, they watch and hate each other, all in the same Body. So, this body is Hastinapura. Ajnani and Sujnani, the Unwise Personality and the Wise Personality are the warring rulers in this body. Do you understand?
Bhakta: Yes, Swami. There is an intimate connection between the Mahabharata war and the qualities and conduct of man. Really, the relationship is there, without doubt. What a fine comparison, Swami! As you said, this type of warfare is taking place in everyone, even now. Well Swami, when will this war end?
Swami: When will this war end, you ask? When both bad qualities and good qualities fade out and man becomes qualityless; then alone can man have Shanti.
Bhakta: At that time, this battlefield, this Asthipanjaram will not exist, is it?
Swami: When there is a battle, there must be a battlefield. When you have no battle, why bother about a field?
Bhakta: Can we not avoid the battle altogether?
Swami: Why not? The subjects encourage the rulers to unleash the hounds of war. Vyamoha (Delusions) are the subjects, who push the individual into the battle. When there are no such subjects, war too will not be waged. So, divest yourself from Vyamoha (Delusions), Mamakara and Ahamkara (feelings of ‘I’ and ‘Mine’) and then, you can be at peace, enjoying undisturbed Shanti. Strive to attain such Shanti, my boy! You can leave now! Wait! Let me tell you one more thing: Entertaining doubts of all kinds is also a delusion, Vyamoha! Strive to be free from even this trait!
Bhakta: Swami, at Venkatagiri, during the Adhyatmika Sabha, You said some things which I could not clearly understand. Can I ask about them now?
Swami: I am happy when anyone asks Me about things which he has not understood. Of course, you have every right to ask.
Bhakta: You said, Sthula-Rupa and Sukshma-Rupa, the gross form and the subtle form, isn’t it? These two, are they the characteristics of the Manas only? Or are they related to everything?
Swami: They are characteristics of everything. In fact, all the names and forms found in the gross exist also in the subtle stage with names and forms! In fact, the gross is there, only to make you understand the subtle present within!
Bhakta: Well then, Swami, we see the gross firmament, the Sthula-Akasha; does it have a subtle Akasha also?
Swami: My dear boy, it is that subtle Akasha which exists in all. The subtle Akasha is as imperceptible and as all-pervading as the gross Akasha.
Bhakta: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: It is known as the Sukshma Hridayakasha, the subtle firmament of the heart.
Bhakta: How can that be all-pervading, Swami?
Swami: Nothing else possesses the vastness that this Hridayakasha has. See how many scenes, how many feelings, how many thoughts, how many conjectures, are immersed and imbedded in it!
Bhakta: Then, have we a subtle Sun also in that subtle sky?
Swami: Of course! Who said, no? Without that, how can there be all this splendour, all this light and wisdom and brightness?
Bhakta: What is its name, Swami?
Swami: When the heart is the Akasha, the Sun, naturally, is the Buddhi or the Intellect that illuminates that sky. The effulgence of the Buddhi is as bright as the rays of the Sun. So, the subtle Sun is Buddhi.
Bhakta: Then it is possible that the Moon also in subtle form is in the Akasha of the heart.
Swami: Not only the Moon, the Sun and the Firmament; did I not tell you in the beginning itself that every gross name and form also has its corresponding subtle name and form? The Moon in its subtle form is Prema (Love), with its cool rays shining in the heart. Love is the subtle form of the Moon.
Bhakta: Excuse me, Swami, the Pandavas and the Kauravas waged a war, isn’t it? How are they supposed to have waged the “subtle” war, these “subtle” Pandavas and their opposite number, the “subtle” Kauravas?
Swami: Why do you say, “supposed to have waged?” They are waging it even today in the subtle form! In this war, Durgunas (Evil qualities) are the Kauravas; the five Sadgunas (Good qualities), Satya (Truth), Dharma (Righteousness), Shanti (Inner Peace), Prema (Love) and Ahimsa (Non-violence) are the five Pandava brothers. The evil qualities are countless, and so the Kauravas too are a horde. Each one under his own Hridayakasha, on his own Chitta Bhumi (field of mind) is waging this war, every moment.
Bhakta: Swami, it is said that the Pandavas are the children of the King, Pandu and the Kauravas are the offspring of the King, Dhritarashtra. In the “subtle” form, how are we to recognise them?
Swami: Both are disputants for the kingship of the selfsame Heart. They are in everyone as Ajnani and Sujnani, the Unwise Personality and the Wise Personality. The unwise blind ruler is Dhritarashtra; the wise Pandu is the father of all good qualities. Have you understood?
Bhakta: But then, Swami, excuse me, in that war there were millions of soldiers and chariots, and the subjects; who are they in this “subtle” conflict?
Swami: Of course, they are all there, in man. The million feelings and thoughts and impressions are the subjects. The ten Indriyas are the regiments; the five senses are the chariots. In everyone’s heart, there is this perpetual war being fought between Good and Evil, between the Pandavas and the Kauravas. Is that clear?
Bhakta: Well, who is Lord Krishna in the subtle war; He who was then the Madhyavarti (the Mediator) between the two, Kauravas and Pandavas?
Swami: Don’t you know? He is the Witness, known as Atma. He is Sarathi, the Charioteer, of the Chariot of life.
Bhakta: Another question. All these people had Hastinapura as their capital then; isn’t it? In the subtle form, which is the Hastinapura?
Swami: The basis for all these subtle manifestations, these subjects, chariots, Pandavas and Kauravas is, as you know, this Asthipanjaram, the Cage of Bones, this Body. So, this Asthipanjaram (Human Skeleton) is Hastinapura! Both have Nine Gates. There, both the Kauravas and the Pandavas were born. They played and were trained there. They grew up together there. They even fought there only. So also, in this same Asthipanjaram all the qualities, good and bad, are born and do grow. They develop and subside, they watch and hate each other, all in the same Body. So, this body is Hastinapura. Ajnani and Sujnani, the Unwise Personality and the Wise Personality are the warring rulers in this body. Do you understand?
Bhakta: Yes, Swami. There is an intimate connection between the Mahabharata war and the qualities and conduct of man. Really, the relationship is there, without doubt. What a fine comparison, Swami! As you said, this type of warfare is taking place in everyone, even now. Well Swami, when will this war end?
Swami: When will this war end, you ask? When both bad qualities and good qualities fade out and man becomes qualityless; then alone can man have Shanti.
Bhakta: At that time, this battlefield, this Asthipanjaram will not exist, is it?
Swami: When there is a battle, there must be a battlefield. When you have no battle, why bother about a field?
Bhakta: Can we not avoid the battle altogether?
Swami: Why not? The subjects encourage the rulers to unleash the hounds of war. Vyamoha (Delusions) are the subjects, who push the individual into the battle. When there are no such subjects, war too will not be waged. So, divest yourself from Vyamoha (Delusions), Mamakara and Ahamkara (feelings of ‘I’ and ‘Mine’) and then, you can be at peace, enjoying undisturbed Shanti. Strive to attain such Shanti, my boy! You can leave now! Wait! Let me tell you one more thing: Entertaining doubts of all kinds is also a delusion, Vyamoha! Strive to be free from even this trait!