Sandeha Nivarini
Swami: Well! You look so full of joy today!
Bhakta: You have Yourself said that man is the embodiment of joy, isn’t it?
Swami: Then, you must always be in this mood; isn’t it? But, do you remain so?
Bhakta: I am trying as far as possible.
Swami: Why do you say "trying"? Does not worry and sorrow flee the instant Yathartha (Reality) is known?
Bhakta: But, what is the Yathartha (Reality), Swami?
Swami: All that “is” is Asatya (untruth, unreal)! The struggles you undergo, the acts you perform, are all Asatya; when you know this, Yathartha will be evident. Remove all the unreal ideas, opinions, acts, and the Satya (Truth) that is hidden underneath can be seen. Piling up all these on top, if you ask, where is Satya, how can it be seen?
Bhakta: How is it possible to take all that is done, seen, spoken, listened to, felt, as Asatya?
Swami: First, understand who is experiencing all these. You refer to the body as “I,” “I,” isn’t it? That is Asatya. When the experiencing “I” is itself Asatya (unreal), how can the experiences be real? All have the same Atma. The person who experienced is not “you”; the person who listened is not “you”. You are always the witness only.
Bhakta: You said, Swami, that in everything and everywhere there is Atma. Is there Atma in a dead body too?
Swami: Oh! A good question indeed! Is this your doubt or the doubt of a dead person?
Bhakta: My doubt only, Swami!
Swami: Well, it is only when you have awakened from deep sleep or Susupti that you are aware that there is an “I”, isn’t it? In the same manner, there is Atma in the corpse also.
Bhakta: Then, how can it be called dead, how can death happen, when there is Atma?
Swami: If you inquire properly, there is no dying and no living. A moving body is called living and a still one dead. In the dream state any number of living bodies and corpses are seen. On waking, they do not exist. Similarly, this world, both moving and still, is non-existent. Death means the fading out of Aham Vritti, the “I” sense. Rebirth happens when the “I” sense comes again. This is what is called birth and death, my boy! This birth and death are only for Ahamkara, I-ness, not for you.
Bhakta: So, I exist always, is it?
Swami: Of course, you do! When the “I” sense (Aham Vritti - state of “I”, mode of being) is there, you exist. When it is not there also, you exist. You are only the base for the Vritti (mode of being/self-awareness); you are not the Vritti.
Bhakta: But they say, “attained Mukti (Liberation).” What is that?
Swami: Understanding the root cause of death and birth, one must completely destroy the Aham Vritti, the “I” sense; that condition is what is called as ‘Mukti’.
Bhakta: So, as I always exist, I and You are One, isn’t it?
Swami: Who said ‘No’? If you are firmly established in that feeling of Oneness, then there is nothing that is separate.
Bhakta: Until then, in order to identify the real “I” in the unreal “I”, some say that the support of a Guru (Preceptor) is wanted; how far is that true, Swami?
Swami: It is only when you have so many “I”s that you need someone’s support, is it not? When all is One, why seek another? Still, until that Aham or that “I” fades out, this speaking “I” and this listening “You” have to be there. When that Aham is gone, whom to speak to? Who listens? All are one. The Pratibimba (Reflection) of the Atma (Pure Consciousness), that is Chidabhasa, is Eshwara (Supreme Being) and the Pratibimba of Eshwara as Antahkarana (reflected consciousness) is Jiva (Individual Being). Isn’t it?
Bhakta: But what exactly is this Chidabhasa, Swami?
Swami: Chidabhasa means the reflection of the Chit (Pure consciousness) as the Aham Vritti that is the sense of “I” (individual consciousness/self-awareness); that One became Three, the Three became Five, the Five became Many. The “I” awareness (Satva) became Three on account of contact with Rajas and Tamas; in those Three, the five Bhutas or elements arose; and through those Five, the Manifold happened. It is this that causes the illusion that the “I” is the body. Speaking in terms of Akasa, there are three: Chidakasha, Chittakasha, and Bhutakasha.
Bhakta: Then, what is Chidakasha?
Swami: That is the Atma.
Bhakta: What is Chittakasha?
Swami: Its reflection. That is to say, Chitta. When that changes into Manas, Buddhi and Ahamkara, it is called Antahkarana, a word which means the senses, the Indriyas that work internally. Chidabhasa having the Antahkarana is the Jiva.
Bhakta: What is Bhutakasha?
Swami: When the Chidakasha reflected as Chittakasha sees the elemental Akasa (the Bhutakasha), it is called as Mano-Akasa; when it sees the Vastu that is the “reality itself” (that which exists), it is termed as Chinmayam (Pure Consciousness). That is why, my dear child, it is said, “Mana yeva manushyanam karanam bandhamokshayoho” (The Manas alone is for Man the cause for both bondage and liberation). The Mind manufactures any amount of Bhranti (delusion).
Bhakta: How can that Bhranti disappear, Swami?
Swami: When you grasp its secret through inquiry, the many merge in five, the five in three, the three in one, and the I exists as I. Suppose you get a headache, you take medicine, and the former disappears; you are back to normal as you were. The delusion that “I am the Body” is similar to this headache. It will disappear if you take the medicine of Vichara or Inquiry.
Bhakta: But, can everyone adopt this path of Inquiry?
Swami: No, my boy. It is only for those whose Chitta has become ripe, and not possible for everyone.
Bhakta: Then, what should we do to reach that ripe stage?
Swami: Now, we have come to the place from which we started! Have you not got things like Japam, Dhyanam, Aradhana, Pranayama and such other Yogas for this? Steadily, through these, your Chitta becomes ripe, and becomes capable of understanding the reality of your true self by inquiry. For such men whose Chitta has attained the ripe stage, the Atma is not something different from themselves or your self. All is Atman!
Bhakta: But Swami, You mentioned only Japam, Dhyanam, Bhajan, etc. Some people adopt Maunam, the Vow of Silence, to reach that ripe stage of Chitta. What is the use of practicing Maunam? What exactly is Maunam?
Swami: The illumination of the soul is Maunam! How can there be Maunam without the Atma being illuminated? Without that, merely keeping the mouth shut is not Silence. Some adopt the Vow of Silence, but communicate, writing on paper or slate; or they point successively to the letters of the alphabet on a chart! All this is Vyavahara Maunam (Pseudo-Maunam)! It is only another way of talking without interruption! However, Maunam is an interminable language. There is no need to attain it. It is ever with you. What you have to do is only to remove all things that disturb it; Otherwise, no one can attain it.
Bhakta: But, many people practice Vang Maunam by merely not opening their mouth to speak; is it of no use then?
Swami: Who said so? If you adopt Vang Maunam to keep out the external obstacles to Sadhana, you certainly can develop your thoughts, you can desist from talking more, you can desist from causing any disturbance or suffering to others, you can escape criticism and worry from others, you will get Ekanagrata (concentration) to contemplate on your thoughts, your brain will be saved from unnecessary talk and it can improve much. With such a brain, you get strength to attain steadiness and to carry on Smarana (constant remembrance of the Lord’s name) better. All these advantages you will realize when you do Sadhana.
Bhakta: Then, for the Sampurna (Accomplished) Jnani all this is not necessary?
Swami: There is no Sampurna Jnani in the world! He is in no need of the world itself; then, why does he need all this?
Bhakta: If that is so, who are these people called Jnanis?
Swami: They are like the Maunam ones I spoke about just now. Jnani is a term applied by courtesy. For a Sampurna Jnani world does not exist. For a Jnani “All is one”! Your Jnanis are all either experts in logic or experts in the knowledge of the world; they are not Jnanis in real sense.
Bhakta: Then, who are the real Jnanis?
Swami: When the physical body dies, a real Jnani merges into Atma just as milk added to milk, oil added to oil, or water added to water. But, some may have some Samskaras, traits, still persisting. Those Samskaras continue to remain in the form of Sankalpas (resolutions, desires). Until these Samskaras are exhausted, they will wander in the world, with a body they like. This is also as per the Lord’s Will. Such men are called as “Daivamsha sambhutas, Bits of Divinity born as Men.”
Bhakta: Why should this difference arise, Swami?
Swami: It arises out of each one’s Sadhana and Sankalpa. Eat a mango and you belch its smell. How can you prevent it? The belch brings the smell of the thing eaten.
Bhakta: Will such men too have Upadhi (manifesting medium)?
Swami: Without Upadhi, how can work get on? They too have it. But, only in a subtle form, until they attain Videhamukti (attaining liberation after body falls).
Bhakta: What is that, Swami?
Swami: Their acts are like the line drawn on water, seen while the line is being drawn; absent as soon as it is finished. Similarly, while it is being done you notice it; in an instant, it is not noticeable any more.
Bhakta: Swami, you said that a Jnani has Vairagya (renunciation) as his hallmark. How does this agree with that?
Swami: That is true! Renunciation is his hallmark. If out of the traits of previous birth, he gets attached, he must know that it is only for the body and not for him. This attachment, Raga, damages the bliss of Jivan-mukti (attaining liberation while being alive); but Jnanam (Self-knowledge) is most important for Videhamukti.
Bhakta: Even if one has no Jnanam, can one attain Mukti by mere Vairagya (renunciation)?
Swami: What a foolish question! How can the fruit be sweet without ripening? Vairagya cannot arise except from Jnanam. There is no Moksha without Vairagya. Be sure of that!
Bhakta: Then, where does Bhakti come in?
Swami: We have come to the very beginning again! Earlier than Jnanam, it is in the form of Bhakti. Earlier than Bhakti, it is in the form of Anurakti, affection. All these are one. Anurakti is the flower, Bhakti is the fruit; it is ripe as Jnana; Vairagya is the sweet juicy final stage. Without one, you cannot have the next. The flower of Anurakti is the most important of all. Once it is formed into the fruit of Bhakti, the ripe stages of Jnana and Vairagya take form by themselves. In order to tend the fruit of Bhakti until the juice and taste (ripe stages) are developed, you must practice daily prayer, etc. Sadhanas, mentioned above. But, from the first, have in view the Oneness of all. Understand that there is no “other” and conduct accordingly.
Bhakta: At least, to keep up appearances in the world one has sometimes to say “this is mine.” What is one to do then?
Swami: Of course, you may have to say so. But simply because you say so, what need is there for you to think everything as “Mine” and feel separateness? When you travel in a carriage, do you take the carriage as “I”? Look at the Sun. He gets reflected in a small pot filled with water, in a broad river, in a mirror, or on a polished pot. For this reason, does the Sun feel that all these things are “He”? Does He get sad when the pot breaks, or the river gets dry? This is exactly like that. If you take “I” to be the body, then, it is all bother! If you don’t take it so, you will shine like the Sun, independent of anything else. Besides, you will be immanent everywhere.
Bhakta: That is as much as to say, each must first discover for himself who he is.
Swami: Exactly! Inquire into that first. Of course, for those who are not competent, this will be too hard to understand. So, those experienced in this line say that such men should not be told these things. If you tell — “You are Yourself Brahmam,” “You have attained Moksha, You are in that Stage,” — to those not competent, they will do no Sadhana, they will act without any rule or order, and they will pay no regard to right and wrong. This must be realized by the path of Seva (selfless service) and revealed only by an experienced Guru or a sage or by the command of the Lord! Those who have Ichchha (Desire) and Sraddha (Unwavering Faith) to know it, of course, can happily ask about it! But it must be practiced; there is no use simply hearing it and repeating, “All is One.” Without practicing, they cannot know or understand it.
Bhakta: Swami, Shankara has already said in the shloka (verse), “Vishvandarapana drishyamana nagari tulyam nijantargatam” (the world is like a city seen through a mirror but it is located within oneself) that the Jagat is Mithya (Unreal), that it is all Maya (Illusion) — is this for common people only or for Jnanis also?
Swami: The Jnani’s eye sees everything as Brahman! The Ajnani or the person without Jnanam cannot understand, whatever is said! So, all Shastras are intended to benefit the middlings and not applicable to Jnanis.
Bhakta: This means that all Sadhanas are included in the Vicharana Marga, the Path of Inquiry?
Swami: Yes. The teaching of the Vedanta is about self-enquiry - “Who am I?” And, to make this inquiry, only those equipped with Sadhana Chatushtaya (the Four means of practise - (1) Viveka - discrimination, (2) Vairagya - detachment, (3) Shad Sampatti - six virtues: Dama - keeping the body and the senses under control; Shama - mind control, Titiksha - staying neutral in gain or loss, pleasure or pain, praise or censure; Uparati - no likes and dislikes; Sraddha - unwavering faith; Samadhana - single pointed concentration, and (4) Mumukshutva - burning desire for liberation) are competent. The purpose of these four is to discriminate between Atma and all else, and to realise that the Atma is eternal and the world is unreal.
Bhakta: How is that to be realised, Swami?
Swami: By inquiring into the nature of the Atma! First Sadhakas do all varieties of Sadhana and finally enter upon this. While a child, they teach you A B C D, isn’t it? Even M.A. and B.A. curricula consist of this A B C D and their permutations and combinations! But to realize this fact, one has to complete one’s studies! All Vedas and Shastras are based on Aksharas, (alphabets; Akshara also means imperishable) that begin with Akara (the letter A) and you will realize this only after reading them, putting into practice and experiencing. All Margas are included in the Vicharana Marga.
Bhakta: But there are some who attain Samadhi (complete Absorption). Will they have all this Vicharana (inquiry), etc. in Samadhi?
Swami: How can there be Vicharana in Samadhi? When you sleep soundly, do you have any thoughts about the world around you? This is also like that.
Bhakta: In the state of Samadhi, does Manas exist or it doesn’t?
Swami: Whatever Manas will continue in sleep, that Manas will be there in Samadhi also.
Bhakta: They talk of a Turiya Stage (a fourth state, Transcendental Stage) in Samadhi. What is that, Swami?
Swami: Turiya is a state of Samadhi in which, even with eyes open, the three states of Jagrat, Swapna and Susupti (Waking, Dreaming and Deep Sleep) are absent in them.
Bhakta: Why is it that those three stages are absent in them? What are the characteristics of that stage?
Swami: Those three states are the characteristics of Ahamkara, I-ness. Ahamkara is Manas, which does all acts. Ahamkara is not present in them who are in the Turiya Stage. It would have disappeared from them long ago. For them, it is all the same, with eyes open or with eyes closed. It is all One.
Bhakta: Swami, without that Aham, how can they talk?
Swami: What was Aham in the beginning, when the Reality is grasped, is transformed as Svarupa, the True Entity! This is referred to as the Destruction of the Mind, Mano-nashanam.
Bhakta: So, this Nirvikalpa Samadhi, etc., are all Nashanam?
Swami: Well, my boy, Samadhis are all Merging, Laya, not Nashanam, destruction. As long as there exists controlling and rising, it is considered as the Sadhaka stage.
Bhakta: This subject is very interesting, Swami.
Swami: Don’t sit quiet, merely appreciating! Practice it in daily life. All right, you can take leave.
Bhakta: Very good, Swami. Please bless me in that practice. I shall be back soon.
X
Swami: Well! You look so full of joy today!
Bhakta: You have Yourself said that man is the embodiment of joy, isn’t it?
Swami: Then, you must always be in this mood; isn’t it? But, do you remain so?
Bhakta: I am trying as far as possible.
Swami: Why do you say "trying"? Does not worry and sorrow flee the instant Yathartha (Reality) is known?
Bhakta: But, what is the Yathartha (Reality), Swami?
Swami: All that “is” is Asatya (untruth, unreal)! The struggles you undergo, the acts you perform, are all Asatya; when you know this, Yathartha will be evident. Remove all the unreal ideas, opinions, acts, and the Satya (Truth) that is hidden underneath can be seen. Piling up all these on top, if you ask, where is Satya, how can it be seen?
Bhakta: How is it possible to take all that is done, seen, spoken, listened to, felt, as Asatya?
Swami: First, understand who is experiencing all these. You refer to the body as “I,” “I,” isn’t it? That is Asatya. When the experiencing “I” is itself Asatya (unreal), how can the experiences be real? All have the same Atma. The person who experienced is not “you”; the person who listened is not “you”. You are always the witness only.
Bhakta: You said, Swami, that in everything and everywhere there is Atma. Is there Atma in a dead body too?
Swami: Oh! A good question indeed! Is this your doubt or the doubt of a dead person?
Bhakta: My doubt only, Swami!
Swami: Well, it is only when you have awakened from deep sleep or Susupti that you are aware that there is an “I”, isn’t it? In the same manner, there is Atma in the corpse also.
Bhakta: Then, how can it be called dead, how can death happen, when there is Atma?
Swami: If you inquire properly, there is no dying and no living. A moving body is called living and a still one dead. In the dream state any number of living bodies and corpses are seen. On waking, they do not exist. Similarly, this world, both moving and still, is non-existent. Death means the fading out of Aham Vritti, the “I” sense. Rebirth happens when the “I” sense comes again. This is what is called birth and death, my boy! This birth and death are only for Ahamkara, I-ness, not for you.
Bhakta: So, I exist always, is it?
Swami: Of course, you do! When the “I” sense (Aham Vritti - state of “I”, mode of being) is there, you exist. When it is not there also, you exist. You are only the base for the Vritti (mode of being/self-awareness); you are not the Vritti.
Bhakta: But they say, “attained Mukti (Liberation).” What is that?
Swami: Understanding the root cause of death and birth, one must completely destroy the Aham Vritti, the “I” sense; that condition is what is called as ‘Mukti’.
Bhakta: So, as I always exist, I and You are One, isn’t it?
Swami: Who said ‘No’? If you are firmly established in that feeling of Oneness, then there is nothing that is separate.
Bhakta: Until then, in order to identify the real “I” in the unreal “I”, some say that the support of a Guru (Preceptor) is wanted; how far is that true, Swami?
Swami: It is only when you have so many “I”s that you need someone’s support, is it not? When all is One, why seek another? Still, until that Aham or that “I” fades out, this speaking “I” and this listening “You” have to be there. When that Aham is gone, whom to speak to? Who listens? All are one. The Pratibimba (Reflection) of the Atma (Pure Consciousness), that is Chidabhasa, is Eshwara (Supreme Being) and the Pratibimba of Eshwara as Antahkarana (reflected consciousness) is Jiva (Individual Being). Isn’t it?
Bhakta: But what exactly is this Chidabhasa, Swami?
Swami: Chidabhasa means the reflection of the Chit (Pure consciousness) as the Aham Vritti that is the sense of “I” (individual consciousness/self-awareness); that One became Three, the Three became Five, the Five became Many. The “I” awareness (Satva) became Three on account of contact with Rajas and Tamas; in those Three, the five Bhutas or elements arose; and through those Five, the Manifold happened. It is this that causes the illusion that the “I” is the body. Speaking in terms of Akasa, there are three: Chidakasha, Chittakasha, and Bhutakasha.
Bhakta: Then, what is Chidakasha?
Swami: That is the Atma.
Bhakta: What is Chittakasha?
Swami: Its reflection. That is to say, Chitta. When that changes into Manas, Buddhi and Ahamkara, it is called Antahkarana, a word which means the senses, the Indriyas that work internally. Chidabhasa having the Antahkarana is the Jiva.
Bhakta: What is Bhutakasha?
Swami: When the Chidakasha reflected as Chittakasha sees the elemental Akasa (the Bhutakasha), it is called as Mano-Akasa; when it sees the Vastu that is the “reality itself” (that which exists), it is termed as Chinmayam (Pure Consciousness). That is why, my dear child, it is said, “Mana yeva manushyanam karanam bandhamokshayoho” (The Manas alone is for Man the cause for both bondage and liberation). The Mind manufactures any amount of Bhranti (delusion).
Bhakta: How can that Bhranti disappear, Swami?
Swami: When you grasp its secret through inquiry, the many merge in five, the five in three, the three in one, and the I exists as I. Suppose you get a headache, you take medicine, and the former disappears; you are back to normal as you were. The delusion that “I am the Body” is similar to this headache. It will disappear if you take the medicine of Vichara or Inquiry.
Bhakta: But, can everyone adopt this path of Inquiry?
Swami: No, my boy. It is only for those whose Chitta has become ripe, and not possible for everyone.
Bhakta: Then, what should we do to reach that ripe stage?
Swami: Now, we have come to the place from which we started! Have you not got things like Japam, Dhyanam, Aradhana, Pranayama and such other Yogas for this? Steadily, through these, your Chitta becomes ripe, and becomes capable of understanding the reality of your true self by inquiry. For such men whose Chitta has attained the ripe stage, the Atma is not something different from themselves or your self. All is Atman!
Bhakta: But Swami, You mentioned only Japam, Dhyanam, Bhajan, etc. Some people adopt Maunam, the Vow of Silence, to reach that ripe stage of Chitta. What is the use of practicing Maunam? What exactly is Maunam?
Swami: The illumination of the soul is Maunam! How can there be Maunam without the Atma being illuminated? Without that, merely keeping the mouth shut is not Silence. Some adopt the Vow of Silence, but communicate, writing on paper or slate; or they point successively to the letters of the alphabet on a chart! All this is Vyavahara Maunam (Pseudo-Maunam)! It is only another way of talking without interruption! However, Maunam is an interminable language. There is no need to attain it. It is ever with you. What you have to do is only to remove all things that disturb it; Otherwise, no one can attain it.
Bhakta: But, many people practice Vang Maunam by merely not opening their mouth to speak; is it of no use then?
Swami: Who said so? If you adopt Vang Maunam to keep out the external obstacles to Sadhana, you certainly can develop your thoughts, you can desist from talking more, you can desist from causing any disturbance or suffering to others, you can escape criticism and worry from others, you will get Ekanagrata (concentration) to contemplate on your thoughts, your brain will be saved from unnecessary talk and it can improve much. With such a brain, you get strength to attain steadiness and to carry on Smarana (constant remembrance of the Lord’s name) better. All these advantages you will realize when you do Sadhana.
Bhakta: Then, for the Sampurna (Accomplished) Jnani all this is not necessary?
Swami: There is no Sampurna Jnani in the world! He is in no need of the world itself; then, why does he need all this?
Bhakta: If that is so, who are these people called Jnanis?
Swami: They are like the Maunam ones I spoke about just now. Jnani is a term applied by courtesy. For a Sampurna Jnani world does not exist. For a Jnani “All is one”! Your Jnanis are all either experts in logic or experts in the knowledge of the world; they are not Jnanis in real sense.
Bhakta: Then, who are the real Jnanis?
Swami: When the physical body dies, a real Jnani merges into Atma just as milk added to milk, oil added to oil, or water added to water. But, some may have some Samskaras, traits, still persisting. Those Samskaras continue to remain in the form of Sankalpas (resolutions, desires). Until these Samskaras are exhausted, they will wander in the world, with a body they like. This is also as per the Lord’s Will. Such men are called as “Daivamsha sambhutas, Bits of Divinity born as Men.”
Bhakta: Why should this difference arise, Swami?
Swami: It arises out of each one’s Sadhana and Sankalpa. Eat a mango and you belch its smell. How can you prevent it? The belch brings the smell of the thing eaten.
Bhakta: Will such men too have Upadhi (manifesting medium)?
Swami: Without Upadhi, how can work get on? They too have it. But, only in a subtle form, until they attain Videhamukti (attaining liberation after body falls).
Bhakta: What is that, Swami?
Swami: Their acts are like the line drawn on water, seen while the line is being drawn; absent as soon as it is finished. Similarly, while it is being done you notice it; in an instant, it is not noticeable any more.
Bhakta: Swami, you said that a Jnani has Vairagya (renunciation) as his hallmark. How does this agree with that?
Swami: That is true! Renunciation is his hallmark. If out of the traits of previous birth, he gets attached, he must know that it is only for the body and not for him. This attachment, Raga, damages the bliss of Jivan-mukti (attaining liberation while being alive); but Jnanam (Self-knowledge) is most important for Videhamukti.
Bhakta: Even if one has no Jnanam, can one attain Mukti by mere Vairagya (renunciation)?
Swami: What a foolish question! How can the fruit be sweet without ripening? Vairagya cannot arise except from Jnanam. There is no Moksha without Vairagya. Be sure of that!
Bhakta: Then, where does Bhakti come in?
Swami: We have come to the very beginning again! Earlier than Jnanam, it is in the form of Bhakti. Earlier than Bhakti, it is in the form of Anurakti, affection. All these are one. Anurakti is the flower, Bhakti is the fruit; it is ripe as Jnana; Vairagya is the sweet juicy final stage. Without one, you cannot have the next. The flower of Anurakti is the most important of all. Once it is formed into the fruit of Bhakti, the ripe stages of Jnana and Vairagya take form by themselves. In order to tend the fruit of Bhakti until the juice and taste (ripe stages) are developed, you must practice daily prayer, etc. Sadhanas, mentioned above. But, from the first, have in view the Oneness of all. Understand that there is no “other” and conduct accordingly.
Bhakta: At least, to keep up appearances in the world one has sometimes to say “this is mine.” What is one to do then?
Swami: Of course, you may have to say so. But simply because you say so, what need is there for you to think everything as “Mine” and feel separateness? When you travel in a carriage, do you take the carriage as “I”? Look at the Sun. He gets reflected in a small pot filled with water, in a broad river, in a mirror, or on a polished pot. For this reason, does the Sun feel that all these things are “He”? Does He get sad when the pot breaks, or the river gets dry? This is exactly like that. If you take “I” to be the body, then, it is all bother! If you don’t take it so, you will shine like the Sun, independent of anything else. Besides, you will be immanent everywhere.
Bhakta: That is as much as to say, each must first discover for himself who he is.
Swami: Exactly! Inquire into that first. Of course, for those who are not competent, this will be too hard to understand. So, those experienced in this line say that such men should not be told these things. If you tell — “You are Yourself Brahmam,” “You have attained Moksha, You are in that Stage,” — to those not competent, they will do no Sadhana, they will act without any rule or order, and they will pay no regard to right and wrong. This must be realized by the path of Seva (selfless service) and revealed only by an experienced Guru or a sage or by the command of the Lord! Those who have Ichchha (Desire) and Sraddha (Unwavering Faith) to know it, of course, can happily ask about it! But it must be practiced; there is no use simply hearing it and repeating, “All is One.” Without practicing, they cannot know or understand it.
Bhakta: Swami, Shankara has already said in the shloka (verse), “Vishvandarapana drishyamana nagari tulyam nijantargatam” (the world is like a city seen through a mirror but it is located within oneself) that the Jagat is Mithya (Unreal), that it is all Maya (Illusion) — is this for common people only or for Jnanis also?
Swami: The Jnani’s eye sees everything as Brahman! The Ajnani or the person without Jnanam cannot understand, whatever is said! So, all Shastras are intended to benefit the middlings and not applicable to Jnanis.
Bhakta: This means that all Sadhanas are included in the Vicharana Marga, the Path of Inquiry?
Swami: Yes. The teaching of the Vedanta is about self-enquiry - “Who am I?” And, to make this inquiry, only those equipped with Sadhana Chatushtaya (the Four means of practise - (1) Viveka - discrimination, (2) Vairagya - detachment, (3) Shad Sampatti - six virtues: Dama - keeping the body and the senses under control; Shama - mind control, Titiksha - staying neutral in gain or loss, pleasure or pain, praise or censure; Uparati - no likes and dislikes; Sraddha - unwavering faith; Samadhana - single pointed concentration, and (4) Mumukshutva - burning desire for liberation) are competent. The purpose of these four is to discriminate between Atma and all else, and to realise that the Atma is eternal and the world is unreal.
Bhakta: How is that to be realised, Swami?
Swami: By inquiring into the nature of the Atma! First Sadhakas do all varieties of Sadhana and finally enter upon this. While a child, they teach you A B C D, isn’t it? Even M.A. and B.A. curricula consist of this A B C D and their permutations and combinations! But to realize this fact, one has to complete one’s studies! All Vedas and Shastras are based on Aksharas, (alphabets; Akshara also means imperishable) that begin with Akara (the letter A) and you will realize this only after reading them, putting into practice and experiencing. All Margas are included in the Vicharana Marga.
Bhakta: But there are some who attain Samadhi (complete Absorption). Will they have all this Vicharana (inquiry), etc. in Samadhi?
Swami: How can there be Vicharana in Samadhi? When you sleep soundly, do you have any thoughts about the world around you? This is also like that.
Bhakta: In the state of Samadhi, does Manas exist or it doesn’t?
Swami: Whatever Manas will continue in sleep, that Manas will be there in Samadhi also.
Bhakta: They talk of a Turiya Stage (a fourth state, Transcendental Stage) in Samadhi. What is that, Swami?
Swami: Turiya is a state of Samadhi in which, even with eyes open, the three states of Jagrat, Swapna and Susupti (Waking, Dreaming and Deep Sleep) are absent in them.
Bhakta: Why is it that those three stages are absent in them? What are the characteristics of that stage?
Swami: Those three states are the characteristics of Ahamkara, I-ness. Ahamkara is Manas, which does all acts. Ahamkara is not present in them who are in the Turiya Stage. It would have disappeared from them long ago. For them, it is all the same, with eyes open or with eyes closed. It is all One.
Bhakta: Swami, without that Aham, how can they talk?
Swami: What was Aham in the beginning, when the Reality is grasped, is transformed as Svarupa, the True Entity! This is referred to as the Destruction of the Mind, Mano-nashanam.
Bhakta: So, this Nirvikalpa Samadhi, etc., are all Nashanam?
Swami: Well, my boy, Samadhis are all Merging, Laya, not Nashanam, destruction. As long as there exists controlling and rising, it is considered as the Sadhaka stage.
Bhakta: This subject is very interesting, Swami.
Swami: Don’t sit quiet, merely appreciating! Practice it in daily life. All right, you can take leave.
Bhakta: Very good, Swami. Please bless me in that practice. I shall be back soon.